nima_tal
85 ( +1 | -1 )

What am I missing? This game is from Nimzovith's book "My system" I have uploaded the

board here:

www.sharemation.com/nima171/forum/puzzle1.GIF?unq=-sfb1m9

It is what book says:

1.Ba3!! Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Rc8 3.Rxg7 Kxg7 4.Be5+(=)

white has perpetual check and game is draw

he continues

if instead of 2....Rc8 black plays 2.....Qxa6 then

3.Be5 Ke8 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 6.Kg3 c5 7.Rxg7+ Kc6 8.Rxc7+ Kb5 9.Rxc5+

Ka6 12.Ra8+ wins the queen(+-)

___________________________________________________

Obviously I am missing some thing here but can any body tell me what is wrong

with this line which is better for black?

1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7

Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7(-+)

P.S.

I hope you can see the board from the link, if not you have to wait a

couple of hours and check again.

What am I missing? This game is from Nimzovith's book "My system" I have uploaded the

board here:

www.sharemation.com/nima171/forum/puzzle1.GIF?unq=-sfb1m9

It is what book says:

1.Ba3!! Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Rc8 3.Rxg7 Kxg7 4.Be5+(=)

white has perpetual check and game is draw

he continues

if instead of 2....Rc8 black plays 2.....Qxa6 then

3.Be5 Ke8 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 6.Kg3 c5 7.Rxg7+ Kc6 8.Rxc7+ Kb5 9.Rxc5+

Ka6 12.Ra8+ wins the queen(+-)

___________________________________________________

Obviously I am missing some thing here but can any body tell me what is wrong

with this line which is better for black?

1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7

Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7(-+)

P.S.

I hope you can see the board from the link, if not you have to wait a

couple of hours and check again.

More: Free Chess Online

nima_tal
24 ( +1 | -1 )

Sorry guys! I gave you the wrong link. Here is the link to board. Sorry again:

www.sharemation.com/nima171/forum/puzzle1.GIF?unq=-sfb071

Sorry guys! I gave you the wrong link. Here is the link to board. Sorry again:

www.sharemation.com/nima171/forum/puzzle1.GIF?unq=-sfb071

More: Chess

nima_tal
17 ( +1 | -1 )

Well, I dont know why when I click on the links, they dont work. But if you copy paste the link in the internet explorer address bar it will work...

Well, I dont know why when I click on the links, they dont work. But if you copy paste the link in the internet explorer address bar it will work...

More: Free Online Chess

soikins
85 ( +1 | -1 )

Hmmm... According to Fritz these lines are full of mistakes. It's no wonder -- the lines are extremely complicated) Actually it's quite common in to find such lines in precomputer age books. Just look at Kasparov "My Great Predecessors" and you fill find dozens of such lines cited in these books.

About the position:

1.Ba3!! Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Rc8 (?? Fritz) 3.Rxg7 Kxg7 4.Be5+(=) It is a draw.

2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 (?? Fritz. Better is: 3. ... Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+ (do you expect human to find this?)) 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 -- the move is impossible, there is a pawn on c6 (or the position is wrong?)

Your line: 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 (? soikins (Fritz assisted)) 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 is drawn. Take a closer look, black can't win this endgame.

Hmmm... According to Fritz these lines are full of mistakes. It's no wonder -- the lines are extremely complicated) Actually it's quite common in to find such lines in precomputer age books. Just look at Kasparov "My Great Predecessors" and you fill find dozens of such lines cited in these books.

About the position:

1.Ba3!! Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Rc8 (?? Fritz) 3.Rxg7 Kxg7 4.Be5+(=) It is a draw.

2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 (?? Fritz. Better is: 3. ... Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+ (do you expect human to find this?)) 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 -- the move is impossible, there is a pawn on c6 (or the position is wrong?)

Your line: 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 (? soikins (Fritz assisted)) 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 is drawn. Take a closer look, black can't win this endgame.

More: 3 Dimensional Chess

nima_tal
24 ( +1 | -1 )

Soikins! So what is your final evaluation?

does 1.Ba3 desereve a (!!) ?

And if 2.....Rxa6 is a (?) what do you suggest?

I think in this line 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7(-+) black has winning chances!

Soikins! So what is your final evaluation?

does 1.Ba3 desereve a (!!) ?

And if 2.....Rxa6 is a (?) what do you suggest?

I think in this line 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7(-+) black has winning chances!

More: Chess Online Computer

soikins
86 ( +1 | -1 )

Black wins 1. Ba3 definately is the best chance, it's a great move from practical point of view, but it doesn't save white. Nimtzowitch did give a lot of !! to his moves, I wouldn't do that if I was him.

The line: 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 leaves some chances to black, but it is still a draw. After 8. Rh1 one can clearly see that blacks king is too far to help the pawn to promote and whites king is close enough to stop it. The only blacks idea is to sacrifice e pawn to open the way for the king an to create two connected passed pawns, but as far as I see it doesn't work. White then places the rook on e file and cuts the black king away from the c pawn. Quite a long explanation, I can make it short: rook endings are drawn :)

Black wins in the variation: 2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+

Black wins 1. Ba3 definately is the best chance, it's a great move from practical point of view, but it doesn't save white. Nimtzowitch did give a lot of !! to his moves, I wouldn't do that if I was him.

The line: 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 leaves some chances to black, but it is still a draw. After 8. Rh1 one can clearly see that blacks king is too far to help the pawn to promote and whites king is close enough to stop it. The only blacks idea is to sacrifice e pawn to open the way for the king an to create two connected passed pawns, but as far as I see it doesn't work. White then places the rook on e file and cuts the black king away from the c pawn. Quite a long explanation, I can make it short: rook endings are drawn :)

Black wins in the variation: 2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+

More: Chess Live

nima_tal
31 ( +1 | -1 )

Soikins! You are right about this line:

2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+

"My system" is considered to be a classic, it is really strange for me that this line has been mentioned in the book:

2.....Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 6.Kg3 c5 7.Rxg7+ Kc6 8.Rxc7+ Kb5 9.Rxc5+ Ka6 12.Ra8+ wins the queen(+-)

without mentioning 3.....Re7! instead of Ke8

Any idea?

....

Soikins! You are right about this line:

2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+

"My system" is considered to be a classic, it is really strange for me that this line has been mentioned in the book:

2.....Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 6.Kg3 c5 7.Rxg7+ Kc6 8.Rxc7+ Kb5 9.Rxc5+ Ka6 12.Ra8+ wins the queen(+-)

without mentioning 3.....Re7! instead of Ke8

Any idea?

....

More: Free Online Chess

soikins
125 ( +1 | -1 )

look deep Maybe nobody noticed :) In the "My System" that I have there is Petrosians foreword where he writes how important this book has been for him, how he read and reread it in childhood, how he analysed the games and how he found mistakes in the analysis. This might be one of them. Keep searching for more of them :)

As I said before -- precomputer age books are full of such mistakes. Re7 is not an easy move to find -- it leaves the night hanging and it's idea (to shelter the king) is not apparent at once. And it is also important that white has to calculate tha whole variation (several more moves along the line I gave) to evaluate the position correctly.

From the practical point of view -- white just went for a flashy play against his weak opponent (it was a knight odds game), the queen sacrifice was really beautifull, and maybe nobody wanted to spoil this beauty by pointing out the unsoundness of the sacrifice.

We -- at the computer age, are damned to miss so much of chess beauty, it's hard to analyse flashy games, because it is so nice to see the beautifull tactical ideas, but so painfull to find out the silicons thoughts about this. But from the other hand -- it is sometimes so sweet to find computers big mistakes and blindness in some tactical positions :)

look deep Maybe nobody noticed :) In the "My System" that I have there is Petrosians foreword where he writes how important this book has been for him, how he read and reread it in childhood, how he analysed the games and how he found mistakes in the analysis. This might be one of them. Keep searching for more of them :)

As I said before -- precomputer age books are full of such mistakes. Re7 is not an easy move to find -- it leaves the night hanging and it's idea (to shelter the king) is not apparent at once. And it is also important that white has to calculate tha whole variation (several more moves along the line I gave) to evaluate the position correctly.

From the practical point of view -- white just went for a flashy play against his weak opponent (it was a knight odds game), the queen sacrifice was really beautifull, and maybe nobody wanted to spoil this beauty by pointing out the unsoundness of the sacrifice.

We -- at the computer age, are damned to miss so much of chess beauty, it's hard to analyse flashy games, because it is so nice to see the beautifull tactical ideas, but so painfull to find out the silicons thoughts about this. But from the other hand -- it is sometimes so sweet to find computers big mistakes and blindness in some tactical positions :)

More: How To Play Chess

sualksnh
53 ( +1 | -1 )

trying to look deep I think there might be a rescue for White after 1.Ba3 Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Qxa6.

In my opinion he should play 3.Bxc7!? threatening 4.Be5.

After 3...Qa2+ 4.Kg3! (4.Kf3? Qb3+ threatening 5...Qd1+) 4...Qe2 5.Be5 Qxe3+ 6.Kg2 I could find no win for Black. 6...Qxe5 7.fxe5 cxb3 8.Rh1 should be a draw. White can try 6...Qe2+ with the idea 7.Kg1? Qxe5 but White plays 7.Kg3, of course. Black can force the white King to the first rank by 6...Qd2+ but I see no way to proceed after 7.Kf1.

I hope that all this is true and that I didn't look too deep in my glass before I made this analysis.

trying to look deep I think there might be a rescue for White after 1.Ba3 Rxb6 2.Bxd6 Qxa6.

In my opinion he should play 3.Bxc7!? threatening 4.Be5.

After 3...Qa2+ 4.Kg3! (4.Kf3? Qb3+ threatening 5...Qd1+) 4...Qe2 5.Be5 Qxe3+ 6.Kg2 I could find no win for Black. 6...Qxe5 7.fxe5 cxb3 8.Rh1 should be a draw. White can try 6...Qe2+ with the idea 7.Kg1? Qxe5 but White plays 7.Kg3, of course. Black can force the white King to the first rank by 6...Qd2+ but I see no way to proceed after 7.Kf1.

I hope that all this is true and that I didn't look too deep in my glass before I made this analysis.

soikins
42 ( +1 | -1 )

sualksnh Be I damned! You are right! It is a draw if black plays 2. ... Qxa6! I even think that 4. Kf3 is sufficient for draw because after 4. ... Qb3 5. Rh1 black also has no way to proceed!

Seems that after 3. ... Rxb6 all the moves lead to draw (as Nimzowitch stated in the book). I'll have to check the computers crazy idea of 3. ... Bxf4 first thing in the morning. Now I want to sleep... See ya all.

P.S.

One thing I can say for sure: Ba3 is certainly an amazing move!

sualksnh Be I damned! You are right! It is a draw if black plays 2. ... Qxa6! I even think that 4. Kf3 is sufficient for draw because after 4. ... Qb3 5. Rh1 black also has no way to proceed!

Seems that after 3. ... Rxb6 all the moves lead to draw (as Nimzowitch stated in the book). I'll have to check the computers crazy idea of 3. ... Bxf4 first thing in the morning. Now I want to sleep... See ya all.

P.S.

One thing I can say for sure: Ba3 is certainly an amazing move!

nima_tal
25 ( +1 | -1 )

Soikins! You wrote:

"2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 (?? Fritz. Better is: 3. ... Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+ (do you expect human to find this?)) 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 -- the move is impossible, there is a pawn on c6 (or the position is wrong?) "

Position is not wrong, there is no pawn on c6 because of "6.Rgg8 c5"

Soikins! You wrote:

"2. ... Qxa6 3.Be5 Ke8 (?? Fritz. Better is: 3. ... Re7! 4. Rxg7 Ke8 5. Rh8+ Kd7 6. Rgg8 c5 7. Rd8+ Kc6 8. Rc8+ Qxc8 9. Rxc8 Kd7 -+ (do you expect human to find this?)) 4.Rh8 Kd7 5.R6h7 Kc6 -- the move is impossible, there is a pawn on c6 (or the position is wrong?) "

Position is not wrong, there is no pawn on c6 because of "6.Rgg8 c5"

soikins
81 ( +1 | -1 )

nima_tal "6. Rgg8 c5" is only in the 3. ... Re7 line, not in the 3. ... Ke8 line.

In the original post you have mixed up the move order ("5. R6h7 Kc6 6. Kg3 c5") in the 3. ... Ke8 line, therefore I thought that Kc6 is impossible. But anyway it doesn't change anything 3. ... Ke8?? loses and Nimzowitch correctly points that out, but he mises the saving 3. Re7! which wins for black. But as sualksnh pointed out. 3. Bxc7 still draws.

I looked at 1. ... Bxf4! line for black -- this intermezo move wins for black. Black can reach similar endgmae that we had in the 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 line, only now he has 2 extra pawns which is sufficient for a win:

1. Ba3!! Bxf4! 2. exf4 Rxb6 3. Bd6 Rxa6 4. Bxc7 Ra2+ 5. Kf3 cxb3 6. Be5 Qg8 7. Bxg7 Qxg7 8.Rxg7+ Kxg7 -+

nima_tal "6. Rgg8 c5" is only in the 3. ... Re7 line, not in the 3. ... Ke8 line.

In the original post you have mixed up the move order ("5. R6h7 Kc6 6. Kg3 c5") in the 3. ... Ke8 line, therefore I thought that Kc6 is impossible. But anyway it doesn't change anything 3. ... Ke8?? loses and Nimzowitch correctly points that out, but he mises the saving 3. Re7! which wins for black. But as sualksnh pointed out. 3. Bxc7 still draws.

I looked at 1. ... Bxf4! line for black -- this intermezo move wins for black. Black can reach similar endgmae that we had in the 1. Ba3 Rxb6 2. Bxd6 Rxa6 3. Bxc7 Ra2+ 4. Kf3 cxb3 5. Be5 Qg8 6. Bxg7 Qxg7 7.Rxg7+ Kxg7 line, only now he has 2 extra pawns which is sufficient for a win:

1. Ba3!! Bxf4! 2. exf4 Rxb6 3. Bd6 Rxa6 4. Bxc7 Ra2+ 5. Kf3 cxb3 6. Be5 Qg8 7. Bxg7 Qxg7 8.Rxg7+ Kxg7 -+